John Gruber’s Daring Fireball Gets Comments (Whether He Likes It or Not)
8:16 pm, February 2nd, 2010, Leander Kahney
John Gruber of Daring Fireball. CC-licensed photo by Scott Beale of Laughing Squid via Flickr
John Gruber of Daring Fireball is the most influential Apple pundit on the web, but readers often complain about the lack of comments on his website.
In fact, Gruber’s site is famous for not having comments. In an age when every website falls over itself to accommodate reader interactivity, Gruber stands alone. He has stubbornly resisted adding comments to his site for years.
Gruber has explained that he dislikes comments because they distract from his all-important voice. This is exactly the kind of egotistical statement that makes him unpopular with many people, especially other writers, but a must-read pundit.
But Gruber is about to get comments, whether he likes it or not.
The team behind MacHeist has just launched DaringFireballWithComments.net– a website that mirrors Gruber’s site with, you guessed it, comments.
“It’s good timing since he was gloating over his lack of comments today,” said John Casasanta, the brains behind the project, “and we’re gonna allow anonymous comments. It should be a shitstorm.”
The lack of comments on Daring Fireball is the thing readers most often ask about, Gruber has noted.
“It’s totally egotistical,” he explained in a podcast, transcribed here. “I want Daring Fireball to be a site that you can’t skim if you’re in the target audience for it. You say, “Oh, a new article from John. I need to read it,” and your deadlines go whizzing by because you have to read what I wrote.”
Casasanta said he has dreamed about the adding comments to DF for years, and pulled it together “on impulse” on Tuesday afternoon.
“It’s a social experiment to see what the site would be like if people were allowed to voice their opinions,” he explained. “I think he’ll embrace it publicly but deep down, he’ll be pissed, which makes me happy.”
There’s no love lost between the two Casasanta and Gruber.
Gruber attacked Cassantra’s wildly successful MacHeist when it first launched, only to praise it later when MacHeist started running paid-advertising on his site. (All Gruber’s posts on MacHeist — good and bad – are here).
“I never called someone a douchebag so many times in my life,” said Casasanta.
Lots of people have called Gruber a douchebag, and a lot worse. Gruber may be influential, but he’s widely reviled for the very personal nature of his attacks — and the inability of critics to answer his charges, often because of the lack of a comments system.
Casasanta noted that DaringFireballWithComments.com pulls in Gruber’s writing by RSS and serves the site’s ads, so Gruber shouldn’t lose any income — and may gain some.
Gruber didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.
John Gruber's Daring Fireball is about to get comments, thanks to DaringFireballWithComments.net.
Posted by Leander Kahney in News | Comment on this article
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“Gruber may be influential pundit, but he’s widely reviled for the very personal nature of his attacks — and the inability to critics to answer his charges, often because of the lack of a comments system.”
From the tone of this article it sounds like you have a personal problem with Gruber. But leaving that aside, it’s pretty weak to suggest that lack of a comments system on Gruber’s site prevents Gruber’s targets from responding to his attacks. Most of Gruber’s targets are bloggers, journalists, and publishers themselves – today for example, he attacked the NY Times – and are big enough to be able to publish their own responses.
Joseph, on February 2nd, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Fabulous – just read Gruber talking about the fact that he holds a patent on the non-commentable site. Pretty funny!
Cityhues, on February 2nd, 2010 at 9:06 pm
I think I agree with Joseph.
Most of his comments are on the mark and as Joseph said he generally comments on people who have the same ability as he does to comment in an open forum.
By allowing his (or any site for that matter) to have comments means that many just end up going along to fight their own personal crusades fanbois vs MSofties
I feel the experiment may just fail
PMoe, on February 2nd, 2010 at 9:43 pm
I like how gruber write and he is right.
oomu, on February 2nd, 2010 at 9:46 pm
The concept of difference between a speaker and an audience is not appreciated by these digital utopians.
francis, on February 2nd, 2010 at 9:48 pm
OMG a big wall of text there. I’d rather read RDM (which I do).
ObamaPacman, on February 2nd, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Gruber’s takes may be harsh at times, but they are rarely random or cruel. He goes to great lengths to provide a logical basis for his arguments.
What surprises me is the tone of this article. It’s clear you have a problem with Gruber, and honestly, your readers really don’t care.
Tech punditry is 90% drama these days.
Reese, on February 2nd, 2010 at 10:05 pm
@Reese, I do have a problem with Gruber. He’s attacked me personally (http://daringfireball.net/2008/03/kahney_jackass), calling me a “fucking jackass” (the original headline). This piece is presented as a point-by-point deconstruction — rational and level-headed — but it’s an unbalanced rant. What comes across most clearly is his irrational need to defend Apple at all costs. Plus, I think, a measure of jealousy that it wasn’t him who was asked to write a Wired cover story about Apple.
But it’s not just me. He’s attacked a lot of people I know and like — and always, always it is unnecessarily harsh.
He calls out reporters for making mistakes (which comes with the territory, no one is omnipotent). Some deserve it, of course, but others don’t: Brian Lam at Gizmodo and Brian Chen at Wired for example.
This was easy when he was a pure pundit, passing judgment on others. But now that he’s acting more like a reporter, publishing details of unannounced products and the like, he is also starting to make get things wrong.
Take his infamous “trust me” comment about AT&T nixing the Google Voice app from the App Store. Nothing of the sort, as Apple later revelaed. (http://daringfireball.net/2009/08/google_voice_story_wrong).
Or his widely-cited Ninjawords story (http://daringfireball.net/2009/08/ninjawords), which accused Apple of censoring the dictionary app because it contained curse words. Except Apple didn’t censor it — as Phil Schiller quickly explained. Gruber didn’t even contact the app’s devs.
If anyone else had been such a sloppy reporter, failing to contact the principles for confirmation or comment — he’d be all over them. Instead, these episodes raised his profile to even greater heights.
Don’t get me wrong — that’s fine. I don’t begrudge him his success. Reporting has changed. It’s incremental, and he’s proven very successful at that style of information dissemination. And he’s smart, a good writer and he knows his shit.
But I still hate his guts for being such a world-class dick.
Leander Kahney, on February 2nd, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Whaaaa I can’t go to Gruber’s house and yell at him. Whaaaa. Oh I have an idea. I’ll build an exact duplicate of his house and yell at that. That’ll work.
Yeah right. Lame & petty. #fail
cottonm, on February 2nd, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Seriously…who gives a flying fuck? Wait I do.
I like the fact that Gruber doesn’t want any comments AND can be an asshole from time to time. I also like that people get pissed and decide to regurgitate his brain dump…with comments. What’s not to love about all this geekery?
Brian, on February 2nd, 2010 at 10:56 pm
I just think it’s awesome I can comment on a story about commenting on stories that don’t allow comments. It’s commentable.
Maph, on February 2nd, 2010 at 11:13 pm
John Casasanta: grow up. You have plenty of detractors yourself, including me for abandoning iClip development (a great product) while continuing to sell it online.
Leander: two wrongs don’t make a right. Saying “But I still hate his guts for being such a world-class dick.” is just as childish as you attack John for calling you an asshole.
I wish everyone would go back to the Dragnet days: “just the facts, maam.”
Samuel Herschbein, on February 2nd, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Maph,
Your comment isn’t worth commenting on.
Oh, wait…
Jeff, on February 2nd, 2010 at 11:59 pm
“@Reese, I do have a problem with Gruber. He’s attacked me personally (http://daringfireball.net/2008/03/kahney_jackass), calling me a “fucking jackass” (the original headline). This piece is presented as a point-by-point deconstruction — rational and level-headed — but it’s an unbalanced rant.”
Leander, this is important additional information. In a post you say Gruber is “widely reviled for the very personal nature of his attacks”, don’t you think it was relevant to mention that you have a personal problem with him? Given the personal bias you’ve just clearly and unambiguously disclosed, it’s not cool IMO to have left that fact out of the original post. Being honest and transparent far outweighs any benefits of pretending to be objective when you obviously are not.
Joseph, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:40 am
I don’t know who this guy is and I don’t care; if he wants to be a douche and not allow comments then more power to him. People shouldn’t rip off his website just to entertain their own dissatisfaction. They should express their opinion on their own forum.
Nobbe, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:41 am
At risk of complaining too much, Brian Chen’s article about the Japanese “hating” the iPhone was patent nonsense, as just talking to a random handful of Japanese sources would have revealed. He was deservedly mocked for that. As for your article “How Apple Got Everything Right by Doing Everything Wrong”, which Gruber slammed … I just read it and it really is pretty weak. I understand as a professional writer you have deadlines to meet but I’m glad there are people like Gruber to call the magazines, and the writers, out on some of this stuff. That said, Cult of Mac is one of my favorite blogs and one I visit several times daily. Keep up the [usually] very good work.
Joseph, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:54 am
Brian Chen is a liar and your mention of him shows that you are on the wrong side.
Pustoolio, on February 3rd, 2010 at 1:52 am
It’s his blog and if he doesn’t want comments then that’s his right. If you don’t like it then don’t read it.
Paul, on February 3rd, 2010 at 2:47 am
The point of comments is that they enable a conversation.
The readers raise a point and the author can respond and clarify as Leander has above.
But really, do you think that John Gruber gives a monkey and is going to read and respond to comments on someone’s clone of DF?
No – it’s a waste of time and will just end up with a ring of Gruber hateboys throwing stones up at the castle.
James, on February 3rd, 2010 at 2:53 am
Steve Jobs is widely reviled, go figure? This post just seems more about personal animosity which is sad. If he doesn’t want comments then so what, acting like a child won’t help.
Stu, on February 3rd, 2010 at 3:02 am
From Daring Fireball’s Contact page:
“I encourage you to send me your comments regarding Daring Fireball. Unfortunately, I am at times a lousy correspondent — where by “at times” I mean “most of the time”. If I don’t respond to your email, or do so only after an inordinate amount of time has passed, please don’t take it personally.”
Kinda shows that the whole concept of this isn’t needed. You can comment at Daring Fireball, or do people get upset that when they’ve posted their comment all their pals can’t read it?
Oh dear boo hoo my Mum can’t read the message I sent to John Gruber.
Stuart, on February 3rd, 2010 at 3:20 am
Thanks for pointing out this bit of juvenile hijacking is the work of MacHeist. I’m on my way to their site to delete my account.
Scott Jennings, on February 3rd, 2010 at 3:35 am
CRY HAVOCK, AND LET SLIP THE SHITSTORM OF WAR!
iFanboy, on February 3rd, 2010 at 4:53 am
Although I read DF quite regularly and think Gruber can be a good writer, I got caught in his flack cannon a while back, for a piece I wrote here on Apple streamlining its MacBook range. He disagreed with what I wrote (although, over time, it turns out I wasn’t far off regarding the direction Apple headed in), but the comments that went out to his entire RSS subs base (which is huge) had me described as ’stupid’ and ‘dumb’. When I emailed him, he did at least reply and apologise, along with updating the archived version of the article, but by then the damage had been done, and I do wonder how much consideration goes into his semi-regular personal attacks.
That said, I still utterly disapprove of MacHeist’s so-called experiment. Cult of Mac has a huge problem with stolen information. Our articles are used far and wide, recredited and used for advertising lure. Frankly, this sucks. DF with comments is mirroring Gruber’s work without his permission, and its creators don’t hide the fact it’s been done largely to piss off Gruber; I find that reprehensible.
Craig Grannell, on February 3rd, 2010 at 5:00 am
John Gruber, who’s that?
The best Apple blog I know of is from Daniel Eran Dilger.
J.
J, on February 3rd, 2010 at 6:24 am
@Leander Kahney
You are painting yourself a coward.
C.O.M. is to D.F. like ad in porn videos is to journalism.
And it is all your fault, but there is time to emend, unless you are riding on the back do shameless sensationalism.
I still come here because i do not have time to read, yeah not an excuse.
Deocliciano Okssipin Vieira, on February 3rd, 2010 at 7:51 am
Get out of my internets, guys.
V, on February 3rd, 2010 at 7:58 am
Inspiring move!
Am gonna build YouTubeWithoutComments.com, and quickly register YouTubeWithoutCommentsWithComments.com too.
Dirk, on February 3rd, 2010 at 8:25 am
The post at 4:53 is not mine
The REAL iFanboy deplores this ABUSE of so-called “free speech” ~ why should JOHN GRUBER (or anybody else) be FORCED AGAINST HIS WILL to be subjected to any amount of abuse and slander ~ by COWARDS hiding behind false identities
iFanboy, on February 3rd, 2010 at 9:01 am
Just a thought. This could harm Daring Fireball by being duplicate content, and decreasing the chance of its stories showing up in searches. (Now, whether that’s a good thing or not I’ll let you decide…)
Oh, and the choice of marker felt font for “With Comments” is clearly meant to get under Gruber’s skin. Anyone who follows DF knows Gruber is a font geek.
Stephen P., on February 3rd, 2010 at 9:04 am
This is about the most juvenile thing I’ve heard in a long time. Gruber has every right not to allow comments ON HIS OWN BLOG! Casasanta obviously has no class and needs to grow up. He’s lost me as a customer until he starts acting like an adult and stops playing with other people’s toys.
D-Rock, on February 3rd, 2010 at 10:03 am
And they wouldn’t ever dare think to slip in a fake entry to make it look like Gruber wrote it, would they? No, of course not.
Bob Maguire, on February 3rd, 2010 at 10:11 am
Most comments are a waste of the digital “ink” they are written with. Most are not constructive and do not add anything intelligent, or funny, or either. So I, 99% of the time, know exactly why John doesn’t have any comments on his website.
Egotistical? Maybe but I don’t know him. Not wanting a lot of crap pushed into his digital living room of writing? Yes. Again. I understand completely.
OlsonBW, on February 3rd, 2010 at 10:13 am
PS: It is also egotistical of readers of his website to think that they have anything to add to what he said. It goes two ways.
OlsonBW, on February 3rd, 2010 at 10:14 am
Everyone has problems with everyone else. Big whoop.
I will be curious, though, how Daring Fireball will deal with the theft of his material, since he copyrights all of it. The “I gots commentz” site is not only copying all of Gruber’s writing, but his site design. The words “blatant theft” comes to mind…
And a quick glance at the comments demonstrates that Gruber probably exercised good judgment in not having comments.
Shelley, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:10 am
No comments because he is basically a coward that want to keep his diatribe without anyone challenging him in any way. A lot of left winged liberals are the same way. All they do is attack and hide from criticism. Oh that is right he is a left winged liberal!
Stephen, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:14 am
With all due respect, Leander, we don’t read Gruber because he does or doesn’t allow comments. We read Gruber because he’s a good writer who cares passionately about a topic WE care about passionately. So what if some douchebag sets up a mirror “with comments”? Are YOU going to post there, using your own name? I seriously hope you’re smarter than that. You – and anyone else who comments there – will just look like as big a douchebag as this Casasanta (whoever the hell HE is), pounding your little feet and your little fists against the floor because Daddy won’t pay enough attention to your moronic retorts.
OneMonkeysUncle, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:16 am
The MICROSOFT Propaganda Machine strikes again. As soon as any pro-Mac writer gains an important audience on the internet, Microsoft sends it’s goons. They shut up Walt Mossberg, Andy Inatko, Steven Levy, and David Pogue, one by one. Now Gruber is the target.
“Gruber with comments” will be a Gruber article followed by 200 a-hole comments from Microsoft’s vast army of unemployed 2-digit gamer egoists, and Microsoft paid propagandists.
zato, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:34 am
Talk about narcississm – Casasanta sounds like a real prick. It seems to me that just taking someone elses website, republishing it and adding a little to it, is (A) grossly disrespectful, (B) probably a significant copyright infringement, (C) beyond egotistical, and (D) can you say “douchbag”?
What business is it of Casasanta if Gruber wants to allow comments or not? I don’t like that Stephen Colbert’s broadcast set has him center-right when I look at the TV – I think he should be center-left, so i’m going to pirate his broadcast signal, and rebroadcast it as a mirror image with Colbert center-left. Do you think I’d get sued?
I hope Gruber sues and wins. A lot.
DJ
DJ, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:45 am
HEY CASASANTA: Did you notice that most major news organizations (NYT, CNN, MSNBC, etc) publish their sites where lots of articles have comments turned off, but some have them turned on.
Where is your vendetta against them? Are you going to mirror the NYT so that you can demand that all their articles have comments enabled? Of course you’re not, because you know they would crush you like a bug.
Clearly, you have a petty, self-absorbed personality problem with Gruber and you are pretending to make a grand internet issue about it, but the fact is, content on the internet IS NOT publicly owned, and you are just plain wrong.
Come to think of it, your website doesn’t have a section where I can vote on the relative douch-baggery of, well, you. Can I mirror your site and add a “douchebag meter” to it so we can see what the internet thinks of you? Would that be ok? I mean, obviously it’s not YOUR content, it’s “everyone’s”, so can I do that? Huh?
Selfish, egotistical, narcissist.
DJ, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:51 am
Hey [Stephen, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:14 am] -
who gives a crap what you think? George Shrub (your dreamboy, no doubt), never held news conferences because he couldn’t stand the questions. Did you rail against that with your myopic view of things or did you fawn over him like all the other mindless zealots?
Gruber’s work belongs to Gruber. Period. End of story.
Or can I have all your stuff? Can I just come take it from you, with out even asking?
DJ
DJ, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:54 am
Everybody should be more egotistical and turn their comments off.
For the most part comments stupid written by anonymous people too spineless to have a blog of their own.
Jose, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Last time I checked, Daring Fireball was copyrighted, meaning you cannot just mirror it and add comments.
Personally, I prefer it without comments and will continue to read the real site.
Colin Scroggins, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
So it’s interesting to me as a business person that JC would do this, even as an experiment. Because it appears that is not the motivation from this article. Why give your customers even one reason outside of your great products and service to think differently of you and your company?
I love everything about Convert, outstanding app! But I put a higher value on respect for an individual’s work as being their own creation, even if you do not agree with it, as in DF.
Why not just kick ass with a great product set, happy customers and let others have their opinion? By doing this JC lends credence to JG, while putting his bottom line in a position to reflect his personal angst. If he had done this as “John Casasanta” and not under the “tap tap tap” brand I would have understood to a degree. As he has positioned things now, I’ll not be so quick to extend “tap tap tap” my CC or recommendations to friends or colleagues.
If I had put my business in such a position I’d be shown the door.
Willis, on February 3rd, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Gruber is a hack even by todays lax blog standards. He has a rapier wit and its his only redeeming value the rest is blustery pablum.
Ric, on February 3rd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Could be far worse – it could be Daniel Eran Dilger, easily the dumbest and most rabid of the Apple Jihadi. So rabid that Digg won’t even allow links to his articles.
Doug Quintane, on February 3rd, 2010 at 1:55 pm
I won’t be reading the hacked DF. The best thing about DF is that it doesn’t have comments. Comment threads on many blogs detract from the content and Gruber is smart enough to realise this. It’s a pity the dimmies at MacHeist aren’t.
I’m not often a fan of invoking copyright law, it’s been abused by too many mega-corps in recent years, but in this case I think it might be the appropriate response and I hope Gruber thinks so too.
David S., on February 3rd, 2010 at 2:16 pm
I side with Leander 100%. I haven’t even able to read DF for well over a year now, because I just can’t handle Gruber’s intentional obnoxiousness. To say nothing of his continuous shoving of opinions down the readers’ throats that they don’t want: Political sneers, his embarrassingly slavish worship of anything published by the New York Times, his cheerleading for Obama, etc. I was going to DF for Apple news and commentary, and found myself getting less and less of it every day.
If the with-comments site manages to knock Gruber’s ego down a couple of notches, it will only be a good thing.
Rajiv, on February 3rd, 2010 at 4:28 pm
@everyone. Thanks for the comments guys. This thread’s a good read.
Gruber briefly messaged Casasanta, btw, and is surprisingly OK with the mirror — for now.
http://www.cultofmac.com/john-gruber-is-surprisingly-cool-with-daringfireballwithcomments-net-dev-says/28974
Leander Kahney, on February 3rd, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Good. Gruber is such an elitist, and his blog screams of self-indulgence. Somebody needs to call out his blatant apple apologist ways.
vbcb, on February 3rd, 2010 at 5:07 pm
There’s some real deep commentary going on over there… Christ. No wonder he doesn’t allow comments.
Really… If you don’t like what he writes… don’t read it. How difficult is that to grasp. And if you don’t like what he writes about you… You’re probably in the wrong business.
martini, on February 3rd, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Judging by the quality of comments on http://daringfireballwithcomments.net/ I think you guys have proven that Gruber was right not to include them.
Anyway, it’s not like Gruber doesn’t welcome feedback, he just doesn’t want to host it for you. It takes 5 minutes to set up your own free blog and reply…
Steve, on February 3rd, 2010 at 9:19 pm
I might as well comment again. People who think it’s a good idea to rip off this guys (copyrighted) website: you’ve been voicing your opinions here (which is legal and ok) LEAVE IT AT THAT. There are a lot of great comments here lending credence to his choice to not enable commenting on his blog. Stop being obstinate, write the guy an email and let him do whatever he wants. Cast your gaze about to other forms of media where it is much more difficult to be heard (where there is also no built in commenting mechanism) and you’ll see many people using THEIR OWN forums for commentary or like in the newspaper writing to the editor. I know I’d be expecting a lawsuit if I ever copied someone else’s work.
Beside all that, you should all grow up and use your time and intelligence for something good. It’s a shame you’re even giving this issue the time of day, let alone committing so much effort to mirroring a website for something so low.
Nobbe, on February 3rd, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Funny. Gruber doesn’t want comments, and that entirely reasonable. It’s also reasonable for people to have opinions on whatever Gruber opines.
To those commenting (!) on the poor state of comments (that existed) on daringfireballwithcomments, do you not see the point of those poor comments?
One of the most amusing things to come out of all this is the Gruber apologists who complain about copyright, when 90% of Gruber’s ‘content’ is mere links to others’ content/articles/statements with a sentence or two either lambasting it or claiming he was there first. It’s tiring, monotonous, and disingenuous.
These days Gruber is just a link filter, and not a good one at that.
Ersatz, on February 4th, 2010 at 3:23 am
When one spends more time reading comments than the original article, it speaks of the quality of the so-called journalists writing the article. As despair.com says: Never Before Have So Many People with So Little to Say Said So Much to So Few.
A good source of information should not have comments.
Xavier, on February 4th, 2010 at 11:47 am
It’s his blog he can do what he wants. I don’t know why people hound him to have comments if he doesn’t want them.
Frankly, it’s egotistical of readers who want comments.
“Waaaayyy! I can’t post comments so others can hear my voice!!!” <- That's egotistical.
IcyFog, on February 4th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
I grew weary of Gruber a long time ago…so I “commented” with my mouse clicks and went elsewhere. Dan Dilger gives me sterling analysis, and a chance to interact, without the attitude (well, except when he descends into political rants – but I just ignore that).
Thomas, on February 5th, 2010 at 9:17 am
Funny that when a guy calls someone a dipshit, when that someone really is one, and fully deserves to be called that, everyone else gets precious about it. My vote for DF.
jerome, on February 6th, 2010 at 12:28 am