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Talking to Riley Testut about App Stores & Sideloading
Apr 30, 2024
Article on Cult of Mac: https://www.cultofmac.com/844796/altstore-app-marketplace-interview/ More Apple news: http://www.cultofmac.com Riley Testut is putting in the work to transition AltStore from a hacky skunkworks project that previously enabled sideloading on #iPhone and iPad into an officially sanctioned app marketplace. “We are getting creative and we’re making it work.” He explained to me that the #AppStore people know and love won’t change — this is all about making new apps possible. Produced by Extra Ordinary for Cult of Mac Music composed by Will Davenport, arranged by D. Griffin Jones Follow us! Twitter: https://twitter.com/cultofmac Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cultofmac Instagram: https://instagram.com/cultofmac/
View Video Transcript
0:00
Good evening. I am here to learn a little bit about Apple's compliance with the DMA, the Digital Markets Act and the European Union
0:10
Apple has just announced that they're going to have sweeping changes to the App Store to comply with this new legislation
0:14
And here with me to talk about it is rally tested. Hello. Hello. Hi. I'm excited to be here and talk about all this
0:21
So last week was a big week. What happened? Basically, like everything I've been wanting more or less for the past few years, Apple
0:30
finally did it. They're announcing that third-party app stores, I'm sorry, marketplaces are coming to the iPhone, owning the EU. So, yeah, they finally just announced
0:39
what we've been waiting so long for them to reveal and specifically how they're going to
0:43
comply with it. I think we will see apps start to come out that just didn't exist before
0:48
And then I think that alone will make this whole thing worth it just so we can start thinking
0:52
about what we've missed out on. Because for so long, we couldn't even know what apps are possible
0:58
because they just be rejected. So now if there's a cool app that exists only in the EU
1:03
other countries around the world can be like, wait, we want that app. I see positive change coming from this
1:08
but from brand-new apps, I don't see much change to the existing app store
1:13
I'm just so excited. Like, I couldn't be more happy just to finally see this all become reality
1:18
because, yeah, it's just something I've really been dreaming about since launching an auto store
1:22
and since working on Delta before that, just to finally have a way to get it out there
1:27
It makes me happy. though I know there's a lot of, like, restrictions, I know it's not perfect, but I am very
1:33
happy that I will finally be able to just get my app out there for the first time. Yeah, it was
1:38
very emotional that day. Like, just even really announced when I was like tearing up. Thank you
1:42
EU and thank you Apple, both of you. So I've seen a lot of reactions that are basically
1:47
I live in the United States. Why should I care? So my next question is, I live in the United States
1:51
Why should I care? Yeah, I live in the United States too. Why should I care? I think this is going to be
1:58
coming to the United States at some point sooner rather than later. We're hearing that the government's
2:03
already investigating or about to investigate Apple even more for their app store policies. So I just
2:08
view as a matter of time. We'll see. Maybe United States will make some changes to what Apple's proposed
2:13
here. But as a whole, I think we're just going to be seeing this soon in the United States within
2:18
the next year or two. I don't think we were entirely expecting just how Apple decided to implement it
2:23
Can you walk us through how app marketplaces work? So it looks like every app is
2:28
still going to have to go through some storefront. So you can go through the app store as always
2:32
or now you can choose to distribute your app through an alternative app marketplace. Apple is not going
2:37
the download an app from the website route, install anything you want, which I kind of expected
2:42
based on recent things. This still allows Apple to basically receive all apps that are going through
2:47
a system. Apple can notarize all the apps and check for security stuff and make sure there's
2:52
nothing awful in these apps. And then developers can just choose to distribute the app to another
2:58
app marketplace like Alt Store, what I'm working on, or Epic Games has announced their storefronts
3:04
We're going to see more app stores appear and we'll see what apps start appearing in those storefronts
3:10
And also in another way thank God because imagine how scummy it would be if those full game advertisements could download a game directly to your phone right No I know I do understand that people are upset about that you can directly get any app
3:23
I didn't really see any world that it would be a free-for-all to just install anything without some restrictions
3:28
I thought it was possible Apple could go a siloiting route, but it would require like a computer
3:32
or something like really just annoying for people. So I'm, yeah, I know people would want that free-for-all, but I think this keeps
3:39
things honestly kind of the same as a whole. So what does it look like for developers who want to
3:45
list their apps online? If a developer wants to list their app inside another app store, they first
3:50
have to agree to Apple's new terms. That comes with them restrictions. The biggest of which is that
3:54
if you are now showing outside the app store or even in the app store and you accept these new
3:58
terms, all downloads of your apps must now, you have to pay 50 cents per download. But you get reduced
4:04
commissions in the app store if you accept these fees and you don't have to pay any commission on payment
4:09
themselves if you should be outside the app store. So if you're a developer, you can choose to
4:14
now put your app outside the app store. And I'll also say Apple allows the first million installs
4:18
for free. So you don't have to pay 50 cents on the first million installs. So if you are an indie
4:22
developer, you have an option now to just choose to put your app not in the app store somewhere
4:27
else and you want to pay anything assuming you don't get more than a million downloads
4:34
That's something I wish could be changed. But that's essentially it. You now have options
4:37
to go outside the App Store. And if you don't, if you're not super popular
4:41
or if you're not over a million downloads popular, you won't have to pay anything for that. So an interesting thing to note is that the EU can still say to Apple
4:49
we don't like your rules and make Apple go back to the drawing board. What, if anything, do you think the EU might want to change about Apple's implementation
4:57
I do actually think they're going to be okay with most of this. I do think this does most pretty much comply with the law
5:05
Most obviously changing is I think, They could ask Apple to remove the core technology fee for free apps
5:14
Or maybe more nuanced, remove that fee for the small business program developers
5:20
So if you're not making more than a million dollar a year, you don't have to pay any fee on a free app
5:26
To me, I think that's a reasonable thing. Like if you're just making a free app and you're not making money from it, it's kind of rough that you could literally go bankrupt if you become successful
5:35
And so I would love to see that change. I would that carve out for that
5:39
And then I would really love iPad to be included in all this because I didn't realize that at first
5:46
I'm not surprised, but I think Apple is making a really dumb mistake for them because the iPad just could benefit so much more from side loading an alternative at marketplaces than the iPhone
5:56
I mean, like I love the iPhone. I can play Pokemon on my phone with like Delta and everything. But there's so much more on the iPad
6:02
We could have like terminals. We could have programming environments. We could have like just any developer tool that can't exist
6:09
And I hope they can change that. I don't know if they're going to be able to get Apple to change that requirement
6:14
It's a completely different app store, Riley. As you know, Apple runs five different app stores
6:19
I know. We were reading all that rules. And I was like, Apple, you can try. It's not going to matter
6:23
And I'm like, oh, my God. They got that carve out So a lot of speculation and a lot of what developers are dreading is that after this developers are going to have to spend the time listing their apps in dozens of the different app marketplaces
6:37
Do you think that will become the norm or that most app developers will just keep their app in one spot
6:42
I think the vast vast majority of developers will choose to keep their apps just in the app store, for one
6:48
I don't see a world when people are distributing their apps across multiple storefronts as much
6:52
It's nice Apple does allow that. But I really view it as if you don't want to be in the app store, you now have another option
7:00
I think we'll see people who couldn't be in the app store. And so they'll put up with these different terms, like Alt Store and like my emulator Delta
7:07
It's like, I have no choice. Like, this is the only way I can distribute my app. So I'll put up with whatever these restrictions are
7:11
So you ran Alt Store years before this announcement. How did that work
7:16
How did you put together the necessary hacks to get an alternative app store before this announcement
7:22
Very creatively. Yeah. It was a lot of just like work around stuff, but high level was Apple a few years ago
7:29
like 10 years ago actually, made it so that if you have an Apple ID, you can install your own
7:34
like the apps you've programmed yourself from Xcode onto your device. So if you're like a student, you can learn to program in Swift and then test out your apps on
7:42
device and you don't have to pay Apple any money. So Alt Store basically just use that exact system and let anyone be a developer and install
7:50
their own apps, except their own apps were just apps other people were just
7:54
So Altstore will just download apps and then sign in with your Apple ID and then make the app look like you developed it yourself and then install it to your phone
8:03
And it was really hacky because apps expired after seven days. So you had to constantly refresh them
8:09
You could only install three at a time, but it worked. After this announcement, you've said that you're turning Alt Store into an official app marketplace
8:17
So what's next on your to-do list? So we're working on like all that boring business stuff
8:22
like Apple has a list of requirements to become like a compliant app marketplace. And so my business partner, Shane and best friend who working on all this with me
8:30
he's already on all that. So that's just chugging along so we can get the permission and start doing all this officially
8:36
But what I'm really focused on right now is gutting the entire Alt Store code base to basically replace it with this brand new way of installing apps
8:45
So we've like built it knowing like at some point Apple would allow us. But now that we know specifically what's here, I have to go through the code base
8:52
basically rip it all up and make it adapt it to literally what we've been given
8:56
So what are some of the business requirements that you need to do for Apple to approve you as a marketplace
9:01
We need to have like a legal entity in the EU. So we're already on that. We need to have everyone stressing out about the million dollar line of credit to prove
9:11
your company. This is not, it's not that crazy requirement. It's a normal thing for businesses to prove that they have ways to do it
9:20
And so I'm not worried about that. We're working on it. I don't want to say too much, but we are just like fulfilling those requirements one by one
9:26
So one of the more hidden rules is that Apple's core technology fee is charged at every install of an app marketplace
9:33
So what's your business plan on Alt Store making back on that money
9:38
I don want to say too much now but I will say that we have figured it out Like people are worried about us and I just I promise y we know we made the numbers work out We will make it work It is annoying that marketplace apps have to pay 50 cents even on the first million
9:54
That would have been nice and could have made our finances much easier. But we are getting
10:00
creative and we're making it work. So what a lot of people are fearing is that companies that
10:05
have beef with Apple, like Facebook and Epic, would set up their own stores that you'd
10:09
you have to visit to download their apps that people want. And their apps would be privacy nightmares that Apple would never allow in the app store
10:17
Do you think Apple's rules prevent that from happening? Do I think it technically prevents that
10:21
No. I think Epic can be doing their store and trying to steal stuff
10:25
There's just not much appeal for a consumer to have to jump through hoops to basically get an app
10:30
they already could get. Because then they're just like, why is this not in the app store
10:34
So I think it's, Epic's going to try. And I think there's possible they'll get some games on board
10:38
There'll be games to their store that have better pricing and everything. What I'm hoping for, though, with alt stores that we'll just have new apps that you literally can't get anywhere else
10:47
And so that'll be like worth a little bit more jumping through a hurdle. Like there's nowhere else to get an emulator on your phone
10:53
So why not jump through the hoop? So for ordinary apps that Apple would otherwise approve, are you going to try and sweeten the pot for those developers to encourage them to go on old store instead of the app store
11:04
I don't think we're going to actively try to like actively reach out and try to get them
11:08
We want Alt Store to be the best indie distribution platform it can be
11:14
And so if there are Indies that choose to put their apps maybe at first on Alt Store
11:18
like to gain some traction or something, we would love that. But I don't want to take apps from the App Store
11:23
Like that is not something we do want. So a rule I think no one was expecting is that you can only set up an app marketplace
11:28
if you plan on accepting any and all apps for sale. So Facebook can't set up the Facebook store where you have to go to download Facebook
11:37
Instagram threads and nothing else. Do you think that would be enough to disaccentivize these more unscrupulous companies from doing
11:47
that sort of thing? I do. I do think there was a lot of people who would just want to make their own storefront
11:52
just for their own apps. Now, I don't think this would necessarily stop meta
11:57
Like, I think they could just make a meta store that you can also submit your app to
12:01
Like, they could just do that. But I do think this was specifically aimed at stopping a bunch of very specific
12:07
yeah, providers from offering just their apps, like Google or yeah, just Microsoft, just their
12:11
own apps, like especially with the App Store changes and the streaming services, right
12:15
aimed at Microsoft trying to stop them from building their own app store just for their streaming
12:19
app. Where can people stay tuned for updates on AltStore? You can follow AltStore on the major
12:26
social media on Massadon, our preferable one, is AltStore at Phostodon.org. You can also follow
12:34
us on threads, AltStore I.O. Or you can follow us still on Twitter
12:39
If you are still on Twitter, we're Alt Store I.O. there. But we're trying to move to the other platforms as soon as possible
12:45
And also, you can find me at Raleigh Testat, basically at Math.com. Social and threads
12:50
Well, thank you for your time. Have a good day. Of course. Thank you. You too
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