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Articles on Cult of Mac: https://www.cultofmac.com/news/apple-coo-jeff-williams-retires
https://www.cultofmac.com/news/new-ceo-of-apple
Jeff Williams, whose role as COO put him charge of #Apple global operations since 2010, will retire later this year, putting him out of the running as #CEO
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0:00
[Music]
0:01
Let's talk about Jeff Williams, Mr. Jeff
0:03
Williams,
0:04
who everyone thinks he's really a boring
0:08
character, but he was the number one um
0:11
candidate to be the next CEO when uh Tim
0:15
Cook eventually steps down. He's been
0:17
Jeff Williams, if if people don't know,
0:19
was is Apple's uh chief operating
0:21
officer, and he announced on Tuesday
0:25
this week that he's going to be stepping
0:26
down um uh later this year, although
0:30
he's going to be starting to give up
0:31
some of his duties in July. Um he has,
0:35
you know, like uh he's responsible for a
0:38
whole bunch of things at Apple. um
0:40
overseeing, you know, the uh all sorts
0:43
of engineering of the Apple Watch and uh
0:46
Apple's sort of spiraling global
0:47
operations.
0:49
Um and so I guess he's got a lot on his
0:51
plate that he's going to be handing off.
0:53
Uh for the moment, he's being his
0:55
position is being filled by Sabi Khn,
0:57
who um is currently the senior vice
1:00
president of operations, which was Jeff
1:01
Williams's old job. So Khan has followed
1:04
him into, you know, his successive role.
1:07
So wherever you know Jeff Williams has
1:08
gone, Sabi Khan follows behind him. And
1:12
uh these guys actually have worked
1:13
together along with uh another candidate
1:15
which I'll talk about in a minute. Um
1:17
these have been the key uh Tim Cook's
1:18
key lieutenants throughout his whole
1:20
career um at Apple.
1:22
My impression of Jeff Williams was
1:24
always that, you know, if Tim Cook were
1:27
hit by a bus on his way to Apple Park
1:29
tomorrow, then Jeff Williams would be
1:31
the immediate person to step in. But
1:34
wouldn't
1:35
or no, he he would be the Jeff Williams
1:36
would be the new CEO automatically if
1:38
Tim Cook suddenly dies of a heart
1:40
attack. But it's never really made a lot
1:42
of sense to me of Jeff Williams being
1:44
the long-term replacement CEO because
1:46
Jeff Williams is only a few years
1:48
younger than Tim Cook and Tim Cook is
1:50
already at retiring age. So, you know,
1:52
Tim Cook retires next year. Jeff
1:54
Williams is what CEO for six months
1:56
before he starts retiring, too. That's
1:58
never made sense to me. Uh,
1:59
but you know, when they talk about
2:00
retiring age, um, like 60 is the new 40
2:04
or whatever. You I I I don't necessarily
2:07
see Tim Cook retiring until he really
2:10
wants to. And, you know, I I could
2:13
totally imagine him being there for
2:14
another 10 years.
2:15
Absolutely. Yeah. In terms of his, you
2:16
know, his uh his abilities, yeah, he
2:19
could definitely be there for 10 years,
2:20
but he, I think, has ambitions to go
2:24
into philanthropy.
2:25
Oh, really? And I I well, I kind of made
2:27
that up, but um
2:30
he he's said a couple of times that he
2:32
he he's interested in giving away his
2:35
money. And of course,
2:36
he's quite the activist CEO, you know,
2:38
in in his own quiet way. And um has done
2:41
a lot of progressive things at Apple.
2:44
And it's hard to tell though, you know,
2:46
because he's if he does if I mean, you
2:48
know, if he wants to have an impact,
2:49
he's his his biggest impact is at Apple.
2:52
And I think sort of stepping away and
2:54
starting to giving away this this this
2:55
huge fortune that he's accumulated um
2:58
would would be interesting but probably
3:00
of lesser impact. You know like he's the
3:02
stuff he could do at Apple has a much
3:04
much you know getting into green
3:06
technology for example you know he could
3:07
do like pushing Apple into green
3:10
initiatives can is going to have far
3:12
more impact than he could do as a
3:13
private citizen. But then again you know
3:15
like maybe he wants to sort of you know
3:17
he's not going to be around forever.
3:18
maybe he's interested in looking at the
3:20
last 10 years, 10, 15 years of his life
3:22
um as a private philanthropist.
3:25
So, I've always thought that like well,
3:27
if you count Jeff Williams out, he might
3:29
be like the immediate next CEO, but in
3:31
not really the long-term replacement.
3:33
I've always thought in these discussions
3:34
that Sabi Khan has been overlooked, not
3:37
only because he's, you know, the next
3:38
rung down in the chain below Jeff
3:40
Williams, but also like he's been there
3:42
a long time and he hasn't really gotten
3:44
a lot of attention. Like there's the
3:45
famous story of Tim Cook in the meeting
3:47
and there's like a problem with their
3:49
logistics in China and Tim Cook says why
3:51
isn't anybody solving this and then at
3:53
the end of the meeting he like turns to
3:54
him to one person and says go over there
3:56
right now and then he like you know the
3:58
that the person like gets on a flight
3:59
with the clothes on his back and flies
4:01
to China. That was Sabi Khan in that
4:03
story and that was like 15 years ago and
4:06
he's still there. Like I I've always
4:08
thought that he would be a good
4:10
candidate until this story broke just
4:12
earlier this week and I looked it up and
4:14
Sabcon also isn't that much younger than
4:16
either of them. He's 58 already. So
4:19
you're right.
4:20
I think it's interesting that also
4:21
illustrates the fact that Apple is a
4:23
company with a very low staff turnover
4:26
at the senior executive level. So people
4:28
tend to have long tenurs there. So you
4:30
do get these you know life what they say
4:33
um people who bleed six colors I believe
4:35
is is one of the phrases and you know
4:39
and and corollery to that is it's one of
4:42
those companies that tends to promote
4:44
from within rather than bringing people
4:45
from outside and when they have tried to
4:48
bring people from outside like I think
4:49
about uh the previous two executives for
4:52
retail you know it just did not did not
4:55
work out well so Apple I think has a
4:58
fairly unique rate way of running
5:01
itself. The businesses are not separate
5:02
profit centers. You know, it's all one
5:04
big profit center and there's lots of
5:06
things that people come in from the
5:07
outside and it makes no sense to them
5:10
the way that Apple works. So, at a
5:11
senior level, you kind of need people
5:14
that that sort of live and breathe the
5:16
the Apple way. The other thing that I
5:18
find interesting
5:19
that team player ethos
5:20
and the candidates that we're talking
5:22
about here um are all with the exception
5:25
of say John Turners we haven't mentioned
5:27
yet the um uh they're non-product people
5:32
these are like operations people um and
5:36
that I don't think is a mistake either I
5:38
think post Steve Jobs it's been quite a
5:41
deliberate decision that the the the
5:44
leadership of the sort of nonproduct
5:46
people and because if you had an OT CEO
5:51
like Steve Jobs, he would want to put
5:53
his mark on or she would want to put
5:56
their mark on the company. And I just
5:59
don't think that's right for Apple. So I
6:00
I think uh you know I I don't think it
6:03
would have ever worked for Johnny IV to
6:05
be the CEO of Apple because
6:08
I think there there can only be one
6:11
Steve Jobs for Apple. Not to say Steve
6:14
Jobs was that unique, but Steve Jobs was
6:16
unique for Apple as being the the sort
6:19
of founder visionary and now they they
6:22
have a a structured organization to move
6:24
that that vision forward. And I feel
6:27
like if they if they brought in a a
6:29
product oriented CEO, it it would
6:32
inevitably change Apple and I I don't
6:34
think that's what Apple wants or needs.
6:37
H that's funny because I mean people
6:38
were saying the exact opposite thing
6:39
when jobs died and I don't agree with
6:41
that exactly
6:42
what they needed
6:45
it's definitely going to come from
6:45
inside for sure there's no way they're
6:47
going to bring they're going to bring in
6:48
an outside candidate and um you know
6:52
Apple University which was um Jobs's
6:55
attempt to sort of inculcate his DNA
6:58
into the company run by um uh what's his
7:01
name David Tommy I think he was a
7:03
Harvard uh business uh professor he's
7:05
created insight he took I It was there
7:07
for about a decade, created this
7:09
extremely comprehensive uh internal
7:12
management training program based upon
7:14
um case studies about how Apple launched
7:17
the iPod and the iPhone and comes up
7:19
with products. It's it's pretty
7:20
comprehensive and I think all of the
7:22
executives go through this. Even uh I'm
7:25
not sure how far down the trainer goes.
7:26
I'm pretty sure all the managers go I'm
7:28
sorry almost everybody goes through some
7:30
kind of Apple University training. Um,
7:34
and this is sort of to to to pass down
7:36
that, you know, Steve Jobs's way of
7:38
doing things inside the company. And um,
7:41
obviously it's been been very very
7:43
successful. And it's also like um, uh,
7:45
Horus Diddy, he's a longtime Apple
7:46
analyst um, that runs a Simco. He talks
7:49
about how Apple is one of the world's
7:51
uh, one of the business world's few
7:54
functional organizations. And the
7:56
functional organization being that it's
7:57
made up of um, experts in in every in
8:01
all their different particular fields.
8:02
and it organized like the army or the
8:04
the armed the armed forces. That's
8:06
another example of a big functional
8:07
organization um where you have all these
8:10
experts that are working together and
8:11
like you said it's not siloed. It's not
8:12
broken up into different pro centers. Um
8:15
it's not you know each different part of
8:17
the organization isn't run for its own
8:18
benefit. It's run for the entire
8:20
company's benefit. Everybody works
8:21
together. So, and this is the kind of
8:23
thing I think, you know, when they did
8:24
this last time, they brought in an
8:25
outside um CEO like Gilio, who uh was
8:30
heralded at the time as a as a as the
8:31
savior of Apple, he was a turnaround
8:33
specialist, and he was going to be able
8:35
to um turn Apple around, which actually
8:37
was kind of true because um
8:39
he gets a hard wrap given that he's
8:41
responsible for selecting OS 10 as the
8:44
next operating system and hiring Steve
8:46
Jobs. Two pretty good, you know, that's
8:48
a good rap sheet for a CEO.
8:50
It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. he's he's
8:52
forgiven for that one move. Um uh but
8:56
you know it definitely was it wasn't it
8:58
wasn't a success and as you mentioned
8:59
Graeme I think that the two high-profile
9:01
examples of where Apple's brought in an
9:03
outside executive
9:05
uh what was his name Dan Browitt
9:07
um that he was a previous head of retail
9:09
I he didn't even last uh it was very
9:11
short wasn't it six months I think
9:13
before he got he got put out in his ear.
9:15
So, I I I'll wrap up real quick. You
9:17
know, I I I was looking um uh a at the
9:21
the other candidates and and um you
9:23
know, I thought, well, there's this one
9:24
person that no one talks about that I
9:25
think is, you know, it's worth thinking
9:27
about is Dejri O'Brien and she's
9:29
currently the head of Apple HR and um
9:33
the retail stores. She has this dual
9:35
role. Um and the interesting thing about
9:37
her and she's an Apple veteran. She's
9:39
been there for 30 years, even longer
9:40
than Tim Cook. and she along with um it
9:42
was Jeff Williams, Sabi Khan and Deedri
9:45
O'Brien. These were Tim Cook's three key
9:48
lieutenants when he was coming up
9:50
through the ranks himself uh and his
9:52
three key lieutenants when he took over
9:54
as CEO. And the one thing that um Dear
9:59
O'Brien, it's interesting about her
10:00
career is that she has held um that job
10:03
she was head of operations too. She came
10:05
up through the operations the same the
10:06
same way that Tim Cook did and Jeff
10:08
Williams did. And so she was previously
10:10
the head of operations and then they
10:12
moved her across to um doing the HR
10:15
stuff and and then the retail stores and
10:18
um the same way that um sometimes when
10:21
Steve Jobs had a tricky position to fill
10:24
um or or there was an opening um he he
10:27
gave it to Tim Cook. So Tim Cook had he
10:30
you know he started out in operations
10:31
but then he got sales and then he got
10:33
services. So three huge areas of the
10:36
company. And the same thing happened
10:37
with Israel O'Brien. you know when when
10:39
she when uh uh uh she was running HR
10:42
which you know was is much bigger than
10:45
uh than it was because of the retail
10:47
stores. There are so many people to to
10:49
to take care of so many staff uh when uh
10:53
when they needed someone to fill in for
10:55
retail Cook layered it on top of De
10:57
O'Brien instead of finding somebody else
10:59
to to take care of it. So it there was
11:01
some interesting parallels there I
11:02
thought with the way that you know he
11:05
trusted um Dejri O'Brien you know she's
11:08
obviously one of the the key uh leaders
11:11
that he has at his disposal and he's
11:13
trust her to like to be able to take on
11:14
massive new responsibilities which I
11:17
thought was interesting. Um but of
11:18
course she has the same problem as all
11:19
the other people we've been talking
11:21
about you know age. She's she's not much
11:23
younger. She's about it's never been
11:24
officially announced but she's 60 I
11:26
think. So, you know, she's only got a
11:28
couple of years, four years younger than
11:29
Tim Cook and uh and a couple years
11:32
younger than Sabi Khan. But anyway,
11:33
interesting. I think she's had an
11:34
interesting career there at Apple. And
11:35
it also be in line, I think, with with
11:37
Tim Cook sort of activist CEO Motors
11:39
Opera Andy, you know, that that that
11:41
maybe he would he would he would
11:42
recommend a woman to fulfill this role.
11:45
That' be sort of an interesting, you
11:46
know, possibly
11:48
a possibility.
11:50
I have a uh spitball idea.
11:54
What what do we think about Lisa
11:55
Jackson? She currently heads up a lot of
11:58
the environmental things at Apple. Like
12:00
she she's always the person who they
12:02
bring on screen at the keynotes to talk
12:03
about, you know, Apple 2030, this big
12:05
environmental goal that they're trying
12:06
to hit. I've done absolutely no
12:08
research, but she looks like she's
12:10
younger than the other two.
12:11
Yeah,
12:12
I just had this idea just now, but Lisa
12:14
Jackson is what what's our instant
12:17
reaction to that? Well, I'd say she has
12:19
no operations experience, you know, no
12:21
no um uh you know, no no um
12:25
I imagine she must be working rather
12:26
closely with the operations team if
12:27
she's trying to you know implement Apple
12:29
2030.
12:30
Yeah, good point. Yeah, for sure. For
12:32
sure. For sure. And who knows, I mean,
12:33
do you need that those things? I mean,
12:35
one of the interesting things too, I
12:36
think about when, you know, when Tim
12:37
Cook was working under Steve Jobs is
12:39
that it looked like he was he was being
12:41
groomed.
12:42
If you look at his career afterwards and
12:44
you think, oh, okay, well, Jobs, you
12:45
know, gave him this job and he gave him
12:46
that job and he was sort of moved around
12:48
a little bit in all the organization. He
12:49
got to be familiar with a lot of
12:50
different parts of Apple, which of
12:51
course, you know, was that was the the
12:54
thing about Jobs I think it that
12:56
distinguished him as a CEO. He had his
12:57
finger in everything.
12:58
Yeah.
12:59
You know, the advertising, the the the
13:02
product development and that's been
13:04
pulled back a little bit, you know, with
13:05
with with Cook and with subsequent exe
13:07
executives. I think, you know, that if
13:10
you look at DJ O'Brien's career, that
13:11
was the one thing that that I noticed,
13:12
too, that she looked like she'd been
13:14
introduced to all these different
13:16
different parts of the operation, which
13:17
kind of looked like, you know, possibly
13:19
a grooming type situation. Um, which
13:21
Jackson hasn't had. You know, she's
13:23
she's been um she's been given a few
13:26
extra jobs, I think. Uh, but they've
13:28
been mostly with um in that in that that
13:31
focus, you know, with with the
13:32
environmental initiatives.
13:33
Yeah. You you know I think one of the
13:35
things that strikes me here is a mistake
13:38
it's really easy to make is we have this
13:40
archetype of the Steve Jobs CEO but
13:42
Steve Jobs is very exceptional was very
13:44
exceptional as a CEO and CEOs are not
13:46
normally involved in like decisions
13:48
about product or anything like that and
13:50
I think Apple under Steve Jobs was a
13:53
very different company in so many ways
13:54
to what it is today but you know it was
13:56
a fraction of the company in terms of
13:58
turnover and in terms of product
14:00
complexity. You know, I was thinking
14:02
about this with WWDC a couple of weeks
14:04
ago and all the different sessions like
14:08
it's overwhelming the number of
14:09
sessions. The number of different
14:10
products and technologies that Apple
14:12
does now is vast and it's so different
14:14
from the company that Steve Jobs headed
14:17
up with his four product matrix. You
14:19
know, it it's it's a different world
14:21
now. It's actually, I would say,
14:22
impossible really for a CEO to perform
14:25
the Steve Jobs role of, you know, having
14:28
hands-on
14:30
decision making on every single product
14:32
because there's just too many for any
14:33
one person to do. This is a company
14:35
that's 10 times the size or more. And uh
14:39
so I think that's something to factor in
14:40
too. And a CEO job, I don't think it
14:43
should be fun. This is a job that's
14:45
about capital allocation as much as
14:47
anything. you know, this is stuff that
14:48
we don't really cover in this podcast.
14:51
So, when we're thinking about it and
14:53
everyone goes to people like John Turnis
14:54
because he's a handsome chap that
14:56
presents things at in at keynotes, but
14:59
that I mean he might be the the best
15:02
hardware leader that Apple has ever had,
15:04
but that doesn't necessarily mean that
15:05
he's the CEO person. CEOs are actually
15:07
normally quite boring that, you know,
15:09
it's only because we have this Steve
15:11
Jobs archetype that we we have that
15:14
expectation. So, you know, I think
15:16
that's why Dedra Bryan is an interesting
15:18
example. I find it hard to imagine her
15:21
presenting uh Apple keynotes in the way
15:24
that Tim Cook and Steve Jobs did. Um
15:27
well, go back go back and look at Tim
15:28
Cook's early keynote presentations.
15:30
They're awful. I mean, he was absolutely
15:32
terrified. Quite rightly,
15:33
he was. Um but the only reason I can't
15:36
imagine her doing it is because I've
15:37
never seen her do it. She's she's a
15:38
behind thescenes person. But I don't
15:40
think there's anything wrong with a CEO
15:42
being a, you know, they don't need need
15:45
to be the charismatic leader. They would
15:46
need to make the the tough calls on
15:49
capital allocation and stuff like that.
15:50
I mean, that's not an expectation that
15:52
we have of literally any other CEO.
15:54
Like, no one's ever like, "Oh, the CEO
15:56
of Walmart doesn't give good keynote."
15:58
We don't Who is that? We don't even
15:59
know. Like, it's kind of an unreasonable
16:01
expectation that we put on Apple CEO
16:03
just because, you know, we're Apple fans
16:05
and we like to watch them. But, um, also
16:07
a bit of real time followup. Lisa
16:08
Jackson was born in 1962, so that also
16:12
doesn't solve that problem. Yeah, I
16:14
guess she takes good care of herself, so
16:15
I didn't I thought she was younger.
16:17
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There.
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